Milwaukee Bucks head coach Doc Rivers approaches a coaching milestone

Being doused by his players in Gatorade. The falling confetti in Boston’s TD Garden. Kevin Garnett yelling, “Anything is possible!” The raising of the Larry O’Brien Memorial Championship Trophy.

There were so many memorable moments for Doc Rivers after he coached the Boston Celtics to the 2008 NBA championship and his first as a head coach. But what actually meant the most to Rivers was the handshake of respect he received from legendary coach Phil Jackson after his Los Angeles Lakers fell short.

“It was awesome and really interesting, obviously, when you are matched up against ‘quote, unquote’ the greatest coach of all-time in that Boston series,” Rivers told Andscape recently. “I never thought we were at a disadvantage. I was very confident in what I was doing. When you think about that first series, everyone picked the Lakers. We won that series. So, that made me as a coach feel great.

“Phil has won so much. Him having to shake your hand after you’ve beaten him is an (expletive) great feeling. We have a pretty good relationship. You can tell that it hurt him just like it hurt me in 2010 when we lost to him. Those are two amazing series and there was a lot of great adjustments by both coaches.”

Rivers entered the Milwaukee Bucks’ game against the Phoenix Suns on Monday a win shy of tying Jackson for seventh on the NBA all-time coaching wins list. Rivers has 1,154 wins during a 26-year coaching career with the Orlando Magic, Boston Celtics, Los Angeles Clippers and the Bucks. Jackson had 1,155 regular-season wins with the Chicago Bulls and Lakers and 11 titles over 20 seasons.

San Antonio Spurs head coach Gregg Popovich, currently taking a leave of absence due to health issues, is the NBA’s all-time leader in coaching wins with 1,419. Former NBA head coach Lenny Wilkens has the most wins by an African American coach with 1,332, third overall in league history. Rivers also appears to have a strong case to make the Naismith Memorial Basketball Hall of Fame as a coach one day as he is the only coach in the top 10 in all-time wins who has not been inducted.

When asked about being close to tying Jackson, Rivers said, “I just don’t count them [wins]. If you hadn’t told me, I would not have known. My job is to win. I’ve done that and that’s all I do.”

The following is a Q&A with Rivers in which he talks exclusively to Andscape about Jackson, Popovich’s legacy and coaching future, his hopes for the Bucks this season, the criticism he has faced for blowing 3-1 leads in the NBA playoffs, the state of African American head coaches in the NBA and more.

How do you describe Jackson as a coach?

We used to have a joke that if you could get Phil off that bench, we’re doing a hell of a job tonight. He really worked on keeping his cool. He tried to stay calm, took his pulse a lot during the game. He would take it to keep calm. He thought he was a better thinker that way. He thought his team functioned better that way, the calmer he is.

I’m not that way. [Golden State Warriors head coach] Steve Kerr is the most excitable coach. We all have our different styles, and that was [Jackson’s] style. [Jackson] believed in a system. All of us guys who have won titles, guys who have had a long period of success in our league, I don’t think that not one coach didn’t have some type of system in the way they did things.

What is your favorite Phil Jackson interaction?

Oh gosh. There’s a lot of them. We got into it once. I’m trying to say this in the right way. But Phil, one of the games, was complaining to the ref. And then I started complaining about something else. And Phil, this was in my young days, I think this is when he knew that I wasn’t (expletive) around. And he said, ‘Oh, you go sit down.’ And I turned around and said, ‘You (expletive) go sit down.’ He looked at me. I said, ‘Yeah, just because you’re Phil Jackson…’

And I’ll give him credit. He walked over right after the game and said, ‘I shouldn’t have done that.’ Phil is a good dude. I’ve talked to him a couple times when I was with the Clippers. I’ve called him a couple times. He’s got so much knowledge. He has this air about him. They call him arrogant. And he should be a little bit. But I love our conversation. Some I won’t share, but they’ve been very good.

Jackson and the Lakers were able to get revenge during the 2010 NBA Finals, beating the Celtics in a deciding Game 7. Are you bothered by losing Game 7 of the NBA Finals in 2010 more than any other game?

By far. It’s not even close. That’s two [possible] titles. Perk [Kendrick Perkins] is out. My gripe is that I thought the second half was completely different than the first half in terms of foul calls. If you remember it was like 17 to four in the second half. Even when I get around [then-Celtics assistant coaches] Thibs [Tom Thibodeau], Ty [Lue] or Sam [Cassell], that is all we talk about, in 2010. I don’t know why we forget about 2008.

But that’s just coaches. You talk about the things you don’t get. This is a hard business. If you’re in it long enough, you’re going to have a lot of great wins. Hopefully, you don’t have a lot of losses, but you’re going to get some and you just keep moving.

Do you consider Jackson to be the greatest NBA coach ever?

Well, [former Celtics head coach] Red [Auerbach] is the greatest because I’m a Boston guy. I have to say that… I don’t know if he’s won more than Red, but those two are the greatest. Those two coaches are the greatest to have ever coached in the NBA. Pop [Popovich] would be third.

Would it mean something for you to pass Phil?

It not just about him. It just means that I’ve had a long [run]. You don’t coach this many years and get to the number that I’ve gotten to without having a lot of success. I’ve coached a lot of teams that haven’t made it but have overachieved. I have a lot of favorite teams. My first team (the 1999-2000 Magic), they picked us to break the Sixers’ record. And we go 41-41.

One of my teams in LA with the Clips, they trade Tobias [Harris] in the middle of the season [in 2019]. We’re literally tanking. We make the playoffs and we take Golden State to six games. We have the largest comeback in a playoff game. I have the largest comeback in Finals history [2008]. So those are the things you remember. You really do.

Do you ever think about coaching in the NBA Bubble when the Clippers blew a 3-0 semi-finals of the NBA playoffs to the Denver Nuggets. Does that loss pain you as well?

No, in the Bubble, I had a group of guys that didn’t want to be there. [Ex-Clippers guard] Lou Williams said [on a podcast in 2023], ‘Look, we were trying to leave. We made the decision that we didn’t want to be there.’ So, I felt that. I knew that. The greatest part about coaches is we keep things in a vault. I could see that.

And what bugs me about the Bubble is I couldn’t get them to understand that we had a chance to win [a title]. That’s what bugs me. They wanted to go home more than they wanted to win. And I still don’t understand that. I’m too competitive. And I really thought that team had enough.

Now, obviously the next year they [Denver] traded half their team because they felt like they didn’t have enough. They battled a ton since then. But that was what bothered me about the Bubble. And who they lost to ended up the winning the title [in 2023]. So, obviously Denver was really good. You can make the case Denver was better when you look at it. They’ve gone on to win a title. The Clippers since then added guys and still couldn’t beat [Denver]. So, maybe Denver was better. But I thought we were.

How do you deal with all the criticism you’ve received from the media and on social media for losing 3-1 series leads four times?

It is what it is. It’s part of my legacy. There’s nothing I can do about it. I got a team that was an eight seed up 3-1. That is coaching. That is not bad coaching. The one with the Clippers is the only one that got away. But people don’t realize that Chris Paul was running on one leg [in 2015 with the Clippers] and we were also the underdog in that series. When you think about it, Houston had home court, not us.

No one tells a real story. And I’m fine with that. It’s unfair in some ways. I don’t get enough credit for getting the three wins. I get credit for losing. I always say, ‘What if we had lost to Houston in six?’ No one cares. One of the things that I’m proud of is we’ve never been swept. All the coaches have been swept in the playoffs. My teams achieve. A lot of them overachieve and I’m very proud of that.

What do you think about the state of African American head coaches in the NBA now? There are currently 12 Black head coaches and one interim among 30 teams.

I feel solid about it. I feel solid about our league about it. I’m glad I was a DEI hire. I did pretty well. [NBA commissioner] Adam’s [Silver] been great. I love where we’re going. I do wish there were more of us in the front office. We’ve broken the coaching seal. I’m part of that.

I talk to a lot of the young coaches, not just Black coaches. I talk to a lot of young coaches now. But the next one [(for African Americans] is front office analytics. We’re almost pitching a shutout in those areas. And we have a few, but we still need more.

Can somebody catch Popovich in coach wins?

I know I’m not, I can tell you that. Yeah, if somebody wants to stick around long enough, but it is not going to be easy. I don’t know if ‘Pop’ coaches anymore. I hope not, honestly. He’s had such a great career. He’s such a great human being.

But people say that with me, too. ‘You had a hell of a career. Why you do it?’ I love it. What else am I going to do?’ And that is what I always tell people. Even one of my players said, ‘Man, coach, you work so hard. You’re so passionate. Why?’ And the question bothered me like, ‘What do you mean why? I love this. I like winning, but this is going to be hard to catch Pop. That’s a long career.

What is key for success for the Bucks this season?

No. 1 is health. But this team is an interesting team. We have proven on given points that we can beat anybody. They decided they were going to win the [NBA] Cup and no one was going to beat us. But then we go backwards. The injury thing has hurt us. Having Bobby [Portis] out sucks. Having Jericho [Sims] out.

So, we’re on the toughest part of our season [schedule] right now, and we literally have one five [center] on the roster [in Brook Lopez]. That’s tough. And the five we have is terrific. He’s 37 years old. And I’m just going to refuse to play him a ton of minutes. So, we’re going to have to get through this somehow. If we can get through this with our head above water, we’re going to be fine.

Will you call Phil when you pass him?

No, I think that’ll come the other way probably knowing Phil.